"HERALBONY TONE FROM MUSEUM ~Listening Museum~" is a podcast that launched this spring and focuses on artists contracted to the welfare experimental company Heralbony.

Sara Ogawa, an actor, filmmaker, and writer, and Takaya Matsuda, CEO of HERALBONY, will be the interviewers. As they listen carefully to the art, they will touch upon the personality and life story of this "unique artist" that can be seen beyond his work.

With three episodes remaining until the final episode, we welcome Hiromi Kurosawa, a guest with a deep connection to HERALBONY, from the 21st Century Museum of Contemporary Art, Kanazawa, who serves as an advisor to HERALBONY. From that encounter, which Takaya describes as "a turning point for HERALBONY," to the future that the group is embarking on, we spoke to Kurosawa, a leader in the contemporary art scene.

#The encounter that became a turning point

Takaya: It's a podcast that focuses on one unique artist each time and allows you to enjoy the appeal of that artist and their work as a museum. The first episode was broadcast on April 30th, and this is the 20th episode. We've had a lot of different people join us, but the final episode will be broadcast at the end of this month, on September 24th, 2023! Thank you so much to everyone who tuned in.

Ogawa: So, for the last three episodes, we're going to be welcoming guests who have a deep connection with Heralbony. So, what kind of people are joining us today?

Takaya: Our previous podcasts were called "Listening Museums" and featured artists with intellectual disabilities. The artists would sometimes go to the bathroom during the show or finish without saying a word. We've been delivering fantastic experimental radio content that is typical of a new welfare experimental company, but this time, we're inviting our first guest who is not an artist. Hiromi Kurosawa, chief curator at the 21st Century Museum of Contemporary Art, Kanazawa, and a planning advisor for HERALBONY! We look forward to working with you.

Kurosawa-san: Thank you very much.

Ogawa: Thank you for coming to the studio today!

Kurosawa-san: I'm happy. It's finally come true.

Ogawa: Thank you. I met you briefly at the exhibition "ART IN YOU" that you curated, and I've been wanting to hear your stories on a podcast ever since. I'm looking forward to hearing some deep stories from you today.

Kurosawa-san: Thank you very much.

Ogawa: You usually work at the Kanazawa 21st Century Museum of Contemporary Art. What exactly do you do there?

Kurosawa: The museum opened in October 2004, but I was actually here before that, so I'm already the longest-serving member of the staff.

Ogawa: Since the launch.

Kurosawa-san: That's right. So next year will be my 20th anniversary. I'll be 20 years old.

Takaya: Amazing.

Kurosawa-san: At the time there was nothing, so I started by building a building. I also research artists and do research every day on what kind of works they have and on what occasions and in what form they can present to everyone. I also welcome children to the museum and visit artists' studios. That's my main job.

Ogawa: What made you yourself become involved in art?

Kurosawa: It wasn't that I wanted to work in an art museum, but rather that I had many experiences where I felt relaxed or tears flowed for some reason while looking at the artworks, and I spent my time thinking, "Is art something that people need?" I had the opportunity to study abroad, so I wondered how I could make a living from art, and knocked on the door of the person who would later become my mentor, and somehow I ended up working at an art museum.

Takaya: It started out as an art museum overseas, right?

Kurosawa: Yes. I did an internship overseas, and after coming back to Japan I joined the Mito Art Tower, which deals with contemporary art , and that's where my career in Japan began.

Ogawa: I've been to Art Tower Mito and, of course, the 21st Century Museum of Contemporary Art, Kanazawa. It's a really sophisticated space with a lot of amazing art, and it's one of my favorite places!

Kurosawa: Thank you.

Takaya: The Mito Art Tower is so big that my daughter got lost (laughs). I was really worried that she had disappeared. But it is a beautiful building.

Ogawa: As you were creating this space, how did you come across HERALBONY?

Kurosawa: When was that? Takaya.

Takaya: There is a free paper called "DIVERSITY IN THE ARTS PAPER" published by the Nippon Foundation that features artists with disabilities. The curator in charge of Kurosawa's team seemed to think that HERALBONY, which was featured in the paper, was interesting. When he said, "I want to go and investigate HERALBONY," Kurosawa said, "That's a good idea," and stamped his approval. So he came to investigate, and from there we had an exhibition of HERALBONY at the 21st Century Museum of Contemporary Art, Kanazawa. The exhibition was called "ROUTINE RECORDS." That's how I got to know Kurosawa. Although HERALBONY claims to be art, many of our employees were originally from the advertising, general contractor, and IT industries, and we didn't have any art experts. So we asked Kurosawa if he would be interested in getting involved, and that's how we got to where we are today. He was like a turning point for HERALBONY.

 Ogawa: Mr. Kurosawa, do you remember your impression when you first saw HERALBONY's art?

Kurosawa: I thought it was new.

Ogawa: In what way did you feel that it was new?

 Kurosawa-san: Of course, when we invite visitors to our museum, we prepare wheelchairs, use sign language and writing, and try to make it possible for people with disabilities to enjoy the museum as well, but there are still differences that cannot be overcome. We didn't know how to smooth out those boundaries. I thought that Heralbony was very new in that it was commercializing the art field in order to help artists become independent and establish a place for themselves in society. I thought that there might be something we could do together. At first, it was a bit unrequited.

Takaya: No, no, no...!

Kurosawa: As a museum, it is a business, so it can be difficult to say this face-to-face, but even so, as our daily lives change slightly, the way we appreciate art will also change, so I sent out a love call saying I would love to work together with them.

Ogawa: It turns out that your feelings were mutual.

Takaya: Oh, no way...! That's wonderful. I'm really grateful!

Ogawa: What was your first exhibition, "ROUTINE RECORDS," like?

Takaya: At the 21st Century Museum of Contemporary Art, we tried new expressions. For example, we made music using certain routines that people with intellectual disabilities have. For example, the artist who was a guest on this podcast likes to bang on the table all the time, and my brother likes to repeat phrases like "sumo wrestler's". It's called stereotypic behavior. We collected the routines that people with intellectual disabilities repeat over and over as sounds, made them into a label, and collaborated with a hip-hop artist to have a DJ scratch them. Then, "sumo wrestler's sumo wrestler's sumo wrestler's" became a proper scratch sound. When I say this, it doesn't sound like anything special (laughs). But in the hands of a professional, it actually becomes something wonderful. Kan Sano, who is often played on J-WAVE, also made a song for us.

Ogawa: Kan Sano is also in charge of the opening theme for my radio show, "ACROSS THE SKY"!

Takaya: Ah, that's right!

Ogawa: I was surprised that it all came together there, but that's why the exhibition was called "ROUTINE RECORDS."

Takaya: That's right. We didn't just exhibit it at the 21st Century Museum of Contemporary Art, we also held events at the arena, and invited the artist to actually come and demonstrate the routine. It was a grand experimental program that lasted for six months.

Ogawa: Do you remember that time, Mr. Kurosawa?

Kurosawa-san: Yes. To allow a wide variety of people to come, we have given HERALBONY the use of a free space called the Design Gallery for half a year, where we have set up turntables and let the people at the venue combine them themselves, switch between them to create songs, and listen to the finished music on headphones, combining a variety of experiences. This, Takaya-san. You can do even more.

Takaya: That's right. I myself had an experience where my brother was saying "what the hell is this!" on the train and he looked like a really scary person, and it was a bad encounter. But just yelling something could be called shouting in music, and they might be doing it because they find it fun. I hope it will become a beautiful beat that has a kind of enlightening function, so I think it has potential in the educational aspect as well.

#Towards a more open Heralbony

Ogawa: I see. That's how your relationship with HERALBONY began, but how are you currently involved?

Takaya: From my perspective, there's a lot to talk about. We've been talking about how we should build relationships with artists, what we should do to have HERALBONY exhibit in overseas exhibitions and work with overseas artists, and how we should approach art fairs. We've asked him to curate HERALBONY exhibitions, and he helps us bounce ideas off of various business ideas, so he's been involved in a wide range of areas.

Ogawa: You were also the curator for the exhibition "ART IN YOU," which I visited some time ago. What perspective do you use to select the works?

Kurosawa: I'm often asked this question, but I think my job is to convey to everyone what is between the lines, something that is difficult to explain in words, in a different way. If you just look at the works, you will find that many of them are truly unique and attractive. However, I think that the curator's job is to approach people who may not be able to go beyond them because they have never seen them before or are unfamiliar with them, by adding a few words, so that they can see the world beyond. Regarding "ART IN YOU," Takaya and Fuminori often say, "We're not introducing this art work because it has a disability, or because it's an artist with a disability, but because it's a good work. We want to introduce it because we want everyone to know about it."

Takaya: Yes, yes.

Kurosawa: That's why I didn't use common labels like "Art Brut" to group the works in the exhibition title. Otherwise, they would be grouped twice. I originally wanted to break down (the existing groupings) and make them smoother, so it would be too ironic to group them again by having an exhibition. So I chose the works to be really simple and to convey what I want to convey.

Ogawa: If you actually go to the exhibition, you can feel the wonderful energy in the works, which makes you feel like it doesn't matter whether you have a disability or not, but there are also many different techniques used. The Heralbony artists draw strange patterns called "kyunikyuni" or print their own faces on a convenience store printer.

Kurosawa: Unique. Avant-garde.

Ogawa: I think it's really amazing how Kurosawa is able to put those kinds of things into words. How do you go about putting them into words?

Kurosawa: I think words alone are probably not enough. So people take the bait with that lack of understanding. Words alone are a bit weak and you can't really feel like you understand everything, so I think one thing is to leave a gap that makes people want to actually see the work, using words as a trigger. You can convey the artist's life, how they spend their time, their methods, techniques, and materials in words, but in many cases, you can only understand how they use them by seeing the work or having the artist demonstrate it. So I think exhibitions are very important as a place to see works.

Ogawa: That's right. HERALBONY exhibitions always have things like live painting and talk shows, which are also fun!

Takaya: Thank you! Yes, one thing I value very much is that I want to express something that is realistic in a realistic state. Art is easily deified in a certain way, but artists have their own lives, and they don't speak fluently about the concept of their work. So we act as spokespeople, but I don't think we just act as spokespeople. I think it's very important for the artist to be in the forefront and take the lead role, like on this radio show where the artist himself has always appeared, so in that sense, even at the media previews and events for "ART IN YOU", I ask the artist himself, "Is there anything you want to say to the media in closing?" and he answers, "No!" I think that's important too, so I do it.

Ogawa: I actually met Keisuke Mori at "ART IN YOU". He was a really cheerful and energetic person, and I was really happy to meet him. Of course I was excited to see his work, but I was also happy to meet him in person.

Takaya: Yes, yes.

Ogawa: Of the art you've come across at HERALBONY so far, is there any that made a lasting impression on you?

Kurosawa: The first thing that comes to mind is the incredible impact that Takuma Hayakawa had.

Takaya: Ah, Hayakawa-san!

Ogawa: He's an author who likes idols and trains.

Takuma Hayakawa "Dancing Passing Train"

Takaya: He also appeared on this program. (Note: He appeared on the fourth episode.)

Kurosawa: To be able to draw something like that, you have to have your own world. I really respect your honesty about what you like. Usually, people tend to embellish themselves in terms of technique or materials, but in Hayakawa's case, that's not the case at all.

Takaya: That's true. Hayakawa really loves idols and trains, and his work shows idols immersed in a train line. He's really an interesting guy. Apparently, at first he only drew trains, but as he got older he also started to like idols, and when the levels of his love for the two things coincided, he created this work at the same time.

Kurosawa: They blend together. The people on the train.

Takaya: They blend together. That's true.

Ogawa: If you combine things you like, it would end up being something like an idol riding a train.

Kurosawa: That's right.

Ogawa: I can't imagine coming up with that shape.

Kurosawa: Yes. But that fusion is what Hayakawa-san loves. It's like the intensity of his love is different. It's really surprising.

Takaya: That's true.

Ogawa: Is there anything you would like to try with Heralbony in the future?

Kurosawa: When I work in contemporary art, I often research themes such as what people of the same generation are thinking. Just like the people who are here with me today, the theme is really broad: what are the people who are here with me thinking about what situation they are in. Until now, it has been divided into genres such as art and music, but I wonder if there is a way to fuse them more and introduce what people think is important in life and what they want to express without barriers.

Takaya: That's great. I don't want to do just art. For example, the routine I mentioned earlier, banging on the table, might be considered "not included in the recording" on the radio, but it might be a kind of talent to just keep banging. I think there are many different sides to it depending on how the spotlight is placed on it. The uniqueness doesn't only belong to artists, but maybe it can be linked to sports for people with disabilities or music. I hope that HERALBONY can be a platform to introduce it across various barriers.

Ogawa: To the extent that you can, could you tell us about what Kurosawa and HERALBONY are doing together?

Takaya: I think we will do it overseas. For sure.

Ogawa: That's exciting! Can you tell me just what it is?

Takaya: First of all, I want to try Europe. Currently, some of the artists under contract with HERALBONY are from overseas, but they are still a minority. In that sense, I think that with Kurosawa-san, we could create a more natural and open-minded HERALBONY.

Ogawa: Mr. Kurosawa, do you have any thoughts about expanding overseas?

Kurosawa: Geographically, we have to get on a plane, but we live in an age of globalization where we're all connected by the Internet. I don't think Japan is that far away for artists anymore. It's a shame to shrink from the world because of ignorance, so we should open it up as much as possible. It would be nice to go in that direction.

Takaya: That's true. In that sense, I also felt the potential in France and the Netherlands when I went there recently, and I'm confident that I can definitely find something if I try, so I was excited to give it a try.

Ogawa: The future looks bright. I'm looking forward to it.

Takaya: No no, I still live in despair (laughs).

Kurosawa: Well, let's do our best! (laughs)

Takaya: I'll do my best!

#The future of art and business

Ogawa: You use original drawings when curating exhibitions, but HERALBONY turns those drawings into products. What are your thoughts on that?

Kurosawa-san: I think that being able to transform into various forms is one corner of the Heralbony licensing business. Most of the works you see in museums are unique pieces that are one of a kind in the world. That's what makes them valuable, but I think everyone wants to wear them, use them as a bag, or buy goods at the museum shop to take home, so I think there is a lot of potential in creating things and experiences that can be taken home, shared, and sympathized with. For example, not everyone in the world can have one of Van Gogh's "Sunflowers." Of course, you can go to a museum to see it, but having a postcard you bought there in your room can remind you of your own memories and conversations with your friends, and I feel that this product has potential and I'm looking forward to it.

Takaya: That's right. It will continue to evolve from now on. I think it's been over a year since you started working with HERALBONY, Mr. Kurosawa. Is there anything that stands out or is memorable?

Kurosawa: There are many things I didn't know. I often regret that I have lived to this age without knowing anything about them. But if I look at the world with that curiosity, I wonder if I can find something I can do. I think that HERALBONY can be an opportunity to see things from a slightly different angle, not just for people with disabilities, but also for people who find it difficult to go to school or are thinking about quitting their jobs. But Takaya, you also expect your work to be evaluated as an art expert, right?

Takaya: Or rather, I think that the economy is only possible if pop music like Arashi and the therapy of people who are also active in the academic music world, like Ryuichi Sakamoto and Joe Hisaishi, exist like the front and rear wheels of a bicycle. I'm not a music expert, so I might be a little different (laughs). Before Mr. Kurosawa got involved, we at HERALBONY collaborated with large companies and were only aiming for the front wheel, like Arashi, but I think that we won't be recognized in the true sense unless we can create more of the rear wheel in-house.

Kurosawa: I see, the Ryuichi Sakamoto group (laughs).

Takaya: I'm in charge of Arashi (laughs).

Ogawa: So you want to develop both pop music that everyone knows, and music that will resonate deeply with core fans?

Takaya: That's right. For example, Disney collaborates with luxury fashion houses every year, and their products are also sold in 100-yen shops, and because the brand has established a solid position, I think they can go back and forth between both lines. We at HERALBONY haven't reached that point yet, so if we acted only on either the front or rear wheel of the bicycle, I think we would be seen as that kind of brand. But I still want HERALBONY to be included in the tableware my daughter uses and the things you buy at 100-yen shops, and I want to be able to collaborate with various fashion houses. That's why I want to incorporate various values ​​and perspectives into the company.

Ogawa: In terms of incorporating various values, not only has diversity in art been expanding recently, but the diversity of the people within Heralbony has also been expanding recently.

Takaya: Right now, deaf employees, that is, employees who are deaf or in wheelchairs, are increasingly joining HERALBONY. When making something, it may take more time to create it while discussing it from various perspectives, but in the end it will be something that everyone can use easily, so I think it actually makes sense in terms of economic rationality. In that sense, rather than making this choice from a supportive perspective, we are doing it because we think it is the right thing to do in terms of economic rationality. Also, let me say one more thing: HERALBONY is recruiting full-time sign language interpreters, and I would like to make a proposal to the government about this in the future.

Kurosawa: Yes.

Takaya: Well, even if people with disabilities, deaf employees, want to work as a matter of course, can they work in the same way as us? Yes, there are tough problems. Even if HERALBONY is understanding. If that can be solved by providing access to information, I think we should create a system for providing access to information, just like we provide employment security for people with disabilities, and ensure that it is easy to work. I would like to expand this kind of initiative.

Ogawa: That's great. I think it's great that HERALBONY continues to experiment with new things not only in art but also in the way they work.

Takaya: I would like to ask Mr. Kurosawa, I wonder if the way that Heralbony has risen to fame is different from the way that the art industry has risen to the top so far. For example, like Keith Haring, many artists become famous and then launch pop-up goods, and then launch their works after reaching a certain level of popularity. But Heralbo has been licensing since the beginning, which is completely different. I really wanted to ask you what you think about that.

Kurosawa-san: I was wondering what kind of image you all have of art and the art world, but museums are particularly authoritative. They have a social role in determining what will be preserved by assigning value to things, so when you enter one, you're already the absolute number one, and I think it appears to everyone that you're number one.

Takaya: Yes.

Kurosawa: But in reality, there are many more expressions and many more people involved, so if you want to be recognized as an authoritative artist, you should aim for a museum, but if Heralbony's form is art that is close to people, I think you should aim for a different place. Moreover, there is not just one path, but many paths. Of course, as a museum, we have to reflect on the fact that we have not been able to introduce much art by people with disabilities, so I think we should work on that more and leave it in the world. However, if we have not yet fostered understanding among people around the world, it will simply be taken in a context that determines the market, so I always think that we should be careful about what context we do it in. So I don't think Keith Haring himself wanted to enter a museum.

Takaya: That's true.

Kurosawa: However, there may be people who have decided that "Keith Haring is the best," and people may think that it is the best because they picked it. I think it's time to stop and think about whether that is what you really want to do.

Takaya: I see. So you have to think about how to climb.

Kurosawa: Yes. On the other hand, I feel that diversity is becoming a bit conservative. Especially in art. So, I would like to see a breakthrough in a different field, such as business or welfare, and have HERALBONY make a foray into the art world. I have high hopes for that.

Ogawa: I'm looking forward to an assault.

Kurosawa: Sorry for using such rough language (laughs). How should I put it? Maybe "influence"?

Takaya: "Influence." That's great!

Ogawa: I hope everyone will visit the museum, and today we welcomed Hiromi Kurosawa, chief curator of the 21st Century Museum of Contemporary Art, Kanazawa, as our guest. Thank you very much, Ms. Kurosawa, for your valuable insights.

Kurosawa-san: Thank you very much.

Text by Tomoyo Akasaka

Hiromi Kurosawa

After graduating from Boston University (Massachusetts, USA), he worked at Art Tower Mito (Ibaraki) and Sogetsu Art Museum (Tokyo) before joining the Kanazawa 21st Century Museum of Contemporary Art Construction Preparation Office in 2003. He has been involved in planning and installing architecture and commissioned works. Since the museum's opening exhibition in 2004, he has organized numerous exhibitions. He has introduced contemporary artists and their works active in Japan and abroad, such as Olafur Eliasson, Do-ho Suh, Fiona Tang, and Janet Cardiff & George Bures Miller. He has also selected museum collections, collaborated with schools, and planned and implemented educational outreach programs for visitors of all ages. He served as general curator for City Net Asia (Seoul, South Korea) in 2011, OpenArt (Orebro, Sweden) in 2017, and Culture City of East Asia (Kanazawa) in 2018.

"HERALBONY TONE FROM MUSEUM ~Listening Museum~" is now available for free

Based on the concept of "imagining the history of an unconventional artist through his art," this program listens closely to the art and touches upon the personality and life story of one "unconventional artist" that can be seen beyond his work.
The two MCs are Sara Ogawa, an actor, filmmaker and writer, and Takaya Matsuda, CEO of HERALBONY. Each episode focuses on a writer under contract with HERALBONY, and welcomes intellectually disabled writers, their families and welfare facility staff as guests.
It is available every Sunday on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and Amazon Music.
You can also enjoy back issues for free.

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